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What Do You Think?

Should doctors consider the opinions of nurses?

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19 Comments

Discussion

  1. What_The_Heck

    Jan 19th, 2010

    Oh wow, poor child. My heart goes out to the family. The name chosen for the doc in this story was well chosen. If I had come up with the name though I assure you it would have been censured.

  2. RachLv

    Jan 19th, 2010

    That’s really tough. I’d have say that although it’s very frustrating, it’s true that we can’t just go around punishing the doctor as they mess up. Many doctors try very hard and still have patients die on them. It’s not an easy job.

  3. Donald

    Jan 20th, 2010

    Are you kidding? Give the doctor a break? Then who are they supposed to be accountable to? They were doing their jobs by punishing him. I don’t know why they keep “staying” instead of revoking as they should.

  4. Tiff

    Jan 20th, 2010

    Most ER protocols are that 2 sets of blood cultures and a lumbar puncture are ordered with basic labs. Broad spectrum antibiotics are also standard protocol until the culture and sensitivity reports are back. More than anything, this seems like a simple case of poor documentation and assessment skills. ERs are so overcrowded with babies with fevers, and people that have had a stomach ache for 2 weeks. The doctors probably assumed that this was just another overly dramatic mother that didn’t have the sense to give her child some tylenol because that is much more commonly seen than meningococcemia. They were quick and dirty to get her in and out so they could move on to the next “emergency”. 3 years doesn’t seem like much but if it’s any consolation, it will haunt him forever. But what about the nurse’s? They can’t make major decisions but they can offer opinions and they have an ethical responsibilty to document the accurate vital signs.This just sounds like a case of incompetency from parking lot to funeral and my heart goes out to these poor parents.

  5. Kuddle

    Jan 20th, 2010

    STRONGLY disagree with Marc! It doesn’t take a doctor to recognize increased respirations. I consider this doctor incompetent for not noticing the OBVIOUS signs and symptons, not researching meningococcemia and not listening to his co-workers. Nor did he examine this child or he would have heard the irregular heart rate. His actions were neglect. Doctors can be licensed killers and receive nothing but a smack on the back of the hand, move to another state and start all over every time he/she is repremended. I am curious as to why the pediatrician didn’t suggest antibiotics. Could it be because the E.R. doctor didn’t present her signs and symptons appropriately to the pediatrician? Afterall, he himself didn’t even know what her vital signs were…how could he give a good description of her illness in a verbal conversation when he didn’t know the obvious facts?

  6. Kuddle

    Jan 20th, 2010

    Tiff, the first lesson learned in medicine is NEVER assume, it makes an ASS of U and ME and kills the innocent. The nurses DID document at 0736 a HR of 193 and respirations of 44. They also suggested antibiotics not once but TWICE. You are correct about one thing, they can not diagnose or prescribe medications or treatments…if they could…this family may not have had to suffer this horrible tragedy.

  7. Fay

    Jan 20th, 2010

    @Tiff: No offense to your opinion but it’s ridiculous to think that we’d be better off if nurses could prescribe meds without doctors (we’re obviously not talking about NPs). If we’re questioning a doctor who took four more years of medical school beyond college not counting residency etc., how can we go and say nurses (many without even a 4-year) know better? Maybe in THIS case but not in most cases.

  8. Fay

    Jan 21st, 2010

    Correction sorry, I meant my last comment @Kuddle, not @Tiff.

  9. cupid

    Jan 21st, 2010

    This is very sad, but….people die. Doctor’s are not God, they are human beings. This doc. obviously was a jerk because ER nurses are the eyes and ears for the doc. while he is seeing other patients. Nurses have to assess and re-assess, over and over and report any abnormal findings to the doc. If the doc won’t listen and the nurse feels strongly that the child is sick…really sick, then he/she should make a stand and force the issue, call the nursing supervisor call the kids doc., call the on call peds doc. it’s a child’s life we are talking about here. The nurse is the patient’s advocate. This wouldn’t have happened with more secure nurses.

  10. cat

    Jan 21st, 2010

    @cupid: The nurses suggested twice that antibiotics be administered. He’s the one who kept CHOOSING to ignore all suggestions given to him. From the pediatrician right on down to the nurses. Yes people die, but this is one death that had the possibility of being prevented if he would have let’s say, asked someone to look up the disease, maybe actually have assessed the child and noted all her symptoms, or even taken a moment when he was asked a second time if they should start antibiotics. Every one is swamped in an ER setting and to me it sounds like the nurses were trying to do what they could. Honestly, any time I’ve been to an ER the nurses are the ones picking up the slack as much as they can. I don’t see that this was any nurses fault in any way.

  11. mjfan

    Jan 21st, 2010

    Patient is sick,…time to get to work. Fingers, dial that phone! Expert is on his way! Job well done!

  12. What_The_Heck

    Jan 22nd, 2010

    @mjfan What the heck???

  13. Kris

    Jan 29th, 2010

    As a nursing student I’ve dealt with great doctors and horrible doctors. From what I read the nurses were doing what they could. A nurses hands are tied very effectively by the doctors. If the Dr doesn’t want to listen they won’t and if you call another Dr, you are treated like a whistle-blower usually. As unfair as that is, it is what happens. This is a heart-breaking story. Dr Punce didn’t check the nurses notes or the exam, obviously, as he didn’t note it, he also did NOT do a through exam. No matter how busy the ER is a general prelim exam takes 5 min, and as this story demonstrates, saves lives. I am more surprised at the Dr saying he didn’t know what meningitis is. This illness has been in the news for months now and a good portion of the general public knows of this illness and at least some of the symptoms, so for a Dr who STUDIED this illness to miss it is more than incompetence, it’s negligence.

  14. Cat

    Feb 1st, 2010

    This is a case of negligence of a high magnitude. First, ER’s are supposed to “fast-track” patients returning for worsening of the same illness. Second, the child was clearly in cardiac and respiratory distress when vital signs were first taken and should have IMMEDIATELY seen a physician. This is standard triage procedure worldwide. An on call pediatrician should have been brought in from the outset, just from the information gained in triage. Either the hospital is equally at fault for not instituting policies in keeping with accepted triage protocols or the staff is fault for not following them. This is the whole reason for triage so that the most serious case are seen immediately and appropriate specialists are called in from the outset. That child should have had a team working on her, not a single doctor. A critical care transport to the nearest facility with a PICU should have been arranged from the outset. Such transportation, if not by helicopter, involves a team usually including a PA, respiratory therapist, PICU nurse or others depending on the condition – not just a lone paramedic in the back with such a critically ill child. This was FUBAR from the moment that child returned to the ER.

  15. Pat

    Feb 1st, 2010

    Obviously, doctors are not perfect, but if they don’t know the answer they are obliged to find out. The Pediatrician gave him his cue, probably based on incomplete information. It was up to him to find out. It’s not that hard. The nurses tryed to push him, but he ignored them. Going over a doctor’s head is tough and potentially dangerous to their career. I would have at least reported to the Nursing Supervisor and let them take it further.

  16. barb2828

    Feb 1st, 2010

    I think the doctor is like alot of them I, they don’t examine their pt. properly, they go on nurse’s assessments. The doctor should be held responible for what happened, the child was in critical condition and something more should have been done. Also the nurses are the first line of defense for pt. and they should have spoken up and done more. If one doctor does not do something, you go to another. Doctors are not perfect, they do make mistakes, yes, but this child’s case should have been handled completely different! The nurses that took care of this little girl are just as much in fault!! Very sad case, and things like this happen every day. When these drs and nurses become to “busy” or that uncaring, it is time they find a new job!

  17. Pat

    Feb 3rd, 2010

    I disagree that the nurses were equally guilty. They cared enough to advocate for the patient multiple times. Yes, they should have taken it further. However, the Doctor failed on multiple levels and was derelict in performing his duties.

  18. LPN2RN2010

    Mar 3rd, 2010

    I would have continued pursuing antibiotics, to the point of nag, and notified the house supervisor, who have made the on call pediatrician come in.Dr. Punce was a putz, and so was the triage nurse the second time around!

  19. Spanky McShee

    May 25th, 2010

    I had an uncle who died basically because the doctor couldnt make up her mind about what he had. I dont get why they cant just ask another doctor. Why do they feel they need to come up with it on their own?


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